Programmers Open Letter to ICGA on Rybka/Fruit

[Harvey Williamson]

My thoughts exactly. I think it was a fair point while BB was unknown. But now the name is on the doccument I have no issues with its authenticity. BB is now on the ICGA Panel and I have no doubts about his credibility.

Who of those on the list is he, exactly?

Best,
Martin

He's not a signatory -- he's on the secretariat of the ICGA tribunal. BB+ is Mark Watkins.

Bildschirmfoto 2011-03-01 um 19.04.40.png

In fact he is on the Panel not the secretariat but that is splitting hairs

[MichaelIsGreat]

Hello to All,


David Levy, the main person behind the ICGA, has started a blind, completely illegitimate, and totally unfair defamatory attack against chess programmers with his recent attacks on chess engine programs that would supposedly be clones for a few of them. And why all this fuss? Only for a few very interested people to illegitimately gain access to the source code of the best chess engine programs and maybe steal their ideas in the process!

[color=#0000FF][b][i]And what on earth has David Levy accomplished to advance further the state of the art of chess engine programs? Basically nearly nothing! Especially when compared to what the chess programmers like Vasik Rajlich, the programmer of Rybka, have done.
[/i][/b][/color] [color=#0000FF][b][u]WE WOULD NEVER EVER HAVE BEEN AT THE HIGH LEVEL WHERE WE ARE TODAY IF CHESS PROGRAMMERS LIKE VASIK RAJLICH HAD NOT DECIDED TO IMPROVE DRAMATICALLY THE STATE OF THE ART IN CHESS ENGINE PROGRAMMING. NEVER![/u][/b][/color] And yet, Vasik Rajlich should put up with ICGA's red tape bureaucrats whose only achievements has been to try to find faults at others when they repeatedly systematically refused to correct first ICGA's own many faults!

[color=#0000FF][b][i]Instead of ICGA's new "witch hunt" of trying to find faults (where there are none! See my previous posts) among chess engine programmers who are honest enough to acknowledge their debts to open source chess engine programs[/i][/b][/color] --- these chess engine programmers who are the very people that allow the bogus, completely irrelevant ICGA "World Computer Chess Championships" to still be barely alive --- [color=#0000FF][b][i]ICGA should start by seriously looking at itself and they should try to correct their own faults instead of accusing falsely others!![/i][/b][/color] For instance, by assessing what is very wrong about the bogus and completely irrelevant ICGA "World Computer Chess Championships"!!!
[color=#0000FF][b][i]I suppose it is easier to accuse others wrongly and falsely than to have the courage of correcting one's own mistakes and faults!!![/i][/b][/color]

About your conspicuous silence about the following statement:
"[color=#FF0000][b][u]WHEN SOMEONE GIVES THE SOURCE CODE OF HIS CHESS ENGINE PROGRAM, HE IS SURELY READY TO HAVE EVERY SINGLE LINE OF HIS SOURCE CODE USED IN OTHER CHESS ENGINE PROGRAMS. HE KNOWS THAT VERY WELL!![/u][/b][/color]"
[color=#FF0000][b][i]Consequently, a chess engine programmer could use the entire source code of a chess engine program whose source code is open source and has been made available online. And that would be perfectly fine for this chess engine programmer to do so!! Why? It is open source and free to use by anybody in their source code as soon as it has been made available online as an open source program![/i][/b][/color]
[color=#FF0000][b][i][u]MOREOVER, FOR YOUR INFORMATION, MANY PROGRAMS (AMONG THEM MANY COMMERCIAL PROGRAMS) USE BIG PARTS OF OPEN SOURCE CODE IN THEIR OWN PROGRAMS. NO ONE BOTHERS! BUT, IN THE CHESS ENGINE PROGRAMMING COMMUNITY THAT IS SO TINY, WE SHOULD BOTHER, ISN'T IT?!![/u] And surely the blind and illogical people at ICGA could say, we surely should witch-hunt the most talented chess engine programmers as if they were so many to have reached the highest level, isn't it?!! Have I used the word pathetic in a previous post?![/i][/b][/color]
[color=#0000FF][b][i]These comments say it all about the current blind debate on clones among chess engine programs!! These comments should close the debate on clones once and for all!! END OF THE STORY I could say!![/i][/b][/color]

Finally, I am perfectly happy to read other people's posts even when they disagree with me. However, is it really necessary to be dishonest at what you say when you disagree with me on what I have said? It would seem to be the case for a few sometimes! Moreover, what is the point of censoring someone's post by inventing false reasons to justify such censorship? Are you adults or blind children?!!
A few among you seem to have this problem of not being able to cope with other people's different points of view!! It is never too late to learn to accept others' different points of view!! I guess most of those posting live in a democratic society and therefore the Internet should certainly not be intolerant of other people's different points of view!


Regards to All
MichaelIsGreat

[Jeremy Bernstein]

About your conspicuous silence about the following statement:
"WHEN SOMEONE GIVES THE SOURCE CODE OF HIS CHESS ENGINE PROGRAM, HE IS SURELY READY TO HAVE EVERY SINGLE LINE OF HIS SOURCE CODE USED IN OTHER CHESS ENGINE PROGRAMS. HE KNOWS THAT VERY WELL!!"
Consequently, a chess engine programmer could use the entire source code of a chess engine program whose source code is open source and has been made available online. And that would be perfectly fine for this chess engine programmer to do so!! Why? It is open source and free to use by anybody in their source code as soon as it has been made available online as an open source program!
MOREOVER, FOR YOUR INFORMATION, MANY PROGRAMS (AMONG THEM MANY COMMERCIAL PROGRAMS) USE BIG PARTS OF OPEN SOURCE CODE IN THEIR OWN PROGRAMS. NO ONE BOTHERS! BUT, IN THE CHESS ENGINE PROGRAMMING COMMUNITY THAT IS SO TINY, WE SHOULD BOTHER, ISN'T IT?!! And surely the blind and illogical people at ICGA could say, we surely should witch-hunt the most talented chess engine programmers as if they were so many to have reached the highest level, isn't it?!! Have I used the word pathetic in a previous post?!
These comments say it all about the current blind debate on clones among chess engine programs!! These comments should close the debate on clones once and for all!! END OF THE STORY I could say!!

Then let's break the silence. Have you ever heard of a software license? Software licenses grant particular usage rights to users of the software and/or source code. Fruit 2.1 was released under the GPL, which means that anyone who used the source code for development of derivative works was legally bound to release that work under the GPL, as well, with open source code. Let me repeat that in terms you can understand: Fruit 2.1 was released under the GPL, which means that anyone who used the source code for development of derivative works was bound to release that work under the GPL, as well, with open source code. Did you get it that time?

If, and I'll emphasize the word if so that you know that I'm serious. If Rajlich used Fruit sources for the development of Rybka, he was bound, contractually, legally bound to abide by the licensing terms. And if he didn't, and if this can be proven, he deserves every bit of scorn and disgrace that comes his way. This isn't a witch-hunt, it's an evidence-based investigation into a potentially serious violation of a software license, a violation which potentially led to significant amounts of money flowing into the pocket of one programmer (Vasik Rajlich) that by rights should have either not flown at all (in the case of an open-source GPL Rybka), or into the pocket of Fabien Letouzey (in the case of some licensed version of his code).

Satisfied? Stop wasting everyone's time.

Jeremy

[MichaelIsGreat]

Hello to All,


I am asked by Jeremy:
"Have you ever heard of a software license? Software licenses grant particular usage rights to users of the software and/or source code."
Yes, I wanted to avoid this debate for many good reasons. You want to start this debate, Jeremy?
First, a significant number of countries do not recognize any rights on software programs! That is the current situation in the world.
Second, you Jeremy who knows it all, [color=#FF0000][b][u]have you read anywhere Vasik Rajlich say that he used the source code of these GPL chess engine programs? The answer is NO![/u][/b][/color]
[b][u]Conclusion:[/u][/b] [color=#0000FF][b][i]Who is wasting someone's time, Jeremy, you or me? Answer: YOU obviously![/i][/b][/color]
[b][i]END OF THE STORY ON THIS MATTER![/i][/b]

The best you are going to achieve with this witch-hunt against the best chess programmers is that they will completely stop participating to the bogus and completely irrelevant ICGA "World Computer Chess Championships"! And when they do that, I will tell them to participate to THE TCEC TOURNAMENTS THAT ARE THE TRUE WORLD COMPUTER CHESS CHAMPIONSHIPS, as they already do.


Regards to All
MichaelIsGreat

[kingliveson]

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... ?tid=21059

Yes I think this is a witch hunt, and the motive is probably jealousy in some cases, and vested interest in others. I would like the ICGA to rule against Rybka, and for court action to follow to decide the issue properly.

I wonder if any of these people crying "foul and witch hunt" have actually looked at the evidence or are even capable of dissecting it...besides, it will be difficult for anyone to convince me Don Dailey is now jealous and after Vas/Rybka given his vigorous defense until recently.

Edit: Furthermore, Harvey and I have not always agreed ( ) and it was sparked by he defending Rybka's interest on this matter --it all started after he said he received a personal email and confirmation from Vas that so and so is so. So I doubt all of a sudden he decided that it'd be a good idea to witch-hunt Vasik. Let's not be silly.

[Marwan]

a small and Important question, What is the result of all this ?
chessbase always wants strongest engine and It does not care if this engine clone or not, before was rybka and now you can play on playchess with ippo engines and this just the first step

[Tord]

Most interesting to me is that people like Tord (see http://www.stmintz.com/ccc/index.php?id=467224) and Don have changed their views on this.

Not one of my proudest moments. I was simply dead wrong. Happens to most of us sometimes.

By the way, this thread proves that you need to block the possibility to use colored text on this message board.

[clumma]

MichaelIsGreat made one relevant point: there is no obvious correlation between playing strength and lines of computer code. If changing one line results in a 100 ELO advantage it is no less an insight than adding 1000 lines to get the same result. That's because random changes of any extent are overwhelmingly likely to prevent the program from compiling, or from playing legal moves, and overwhelmingly unlikely to improve playing strength. This is why we judge chess engines by having them play chess, rather than by examining their source code.

Fruit was the strongest chess engine at the time its source was closed, and I guarantee that every professional chess programmer with a pulse took everything they could from it. That is why all major chess engines exploded in strength around that time. Anyone who reads the Chess Programming Wiki should understand there are no secrets in this business, and this is why chess engines have always run neck-and-neck, below the statistical power of most tournaments (as MichaelIsGreat did correctly state). Except for Rybka, which lead the field -- including the Fruit derivative Toga and the commercial version of Fruit itself! -- by 100 ELO for a few years. So I don't think the idea of "cloning" an open source program makes much sense (reverse compiling is another issue). Rybka is a chess engine which happened to be new in 2005, whereas many top engines at the time happened to be new in 1985.

I would like to know why the commercial version of Fruit is not in violation of the GPL.

-Carl

[Uly]

By the way, this thread proves that you need to block the possibility to use colored text on this message board.

It doesn't. If someone uses scissors to hurt someone else, does it mean we should put a ban on scissors? What about all their other uses?

Hopefully MichaelIsGreat can be restricted to no use of color tags, now that I think about it.

[Tord]

Now that the letter is signed and sent to the ICGA, I should probably let the ICGA do its work and refrain from making too many comments in public, but it seems to be necessary to clarify a few misunderstandings:

Fruit was the strongest chess engine at the time its source was closed, and I guarantee that every professional chess programmer with a pulse took everything they could from it. That is why all major chess engines exploded in strength around that time.

There are many reasons for that, but it is important to realize that there is a world of difference between studying a program, finding a few tricks you can use, and implementing these techniques in your own program (which everybody agrees is OK) on the one hand, and using somebody else's complete program as the basis for your own work on the other hand. We're talking about the latter.

I would like to know why the commercial version of Fruit is not in violation of the GPL.

For the same reason that Mark Uniacke isn't guilty of software piracy when he sends me a free copy of Hiarcs: He's the copyright holder, and can do whatever he wants with his program.

Moreover, the GPL is off-topic for this discussion. The letter isn't about copyright laws, but about tournament rules. In ICGA sanctioned tournaments, the participating programs must be the original works of their author(s). Even if Fruit was open domain and could be used legally as a basis for a proprietary, commercial program, entering such a program in an ICGA sanctioned tournament would still be against the rules.