BB's Rybka/Ippolit comparison

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BB's Rybka/Ippolit comparison

Postby zwegner » Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:23 pm

OK, here's what you've all been waiting for: some actual evidence about Rybka and Ippolit. This comes from the man known as BB on the Rybka forum, and he gave me permission to repost here.

It's quite technical and long, but very thorough.
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REPORT.pdf
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Re: BB's Rybka/Ippolit comparison

Postby Martin Thoresen » Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:30 pm

*reading*
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Re: BB's Rybka/Ippolit comparison

Postby Ted Summers » Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:58 pm

zwegner wrote:OK, here's what you've all been waiting for: some actual evidence about Rybka and Ippolit. This comes from the man known as BB on the Rybka forum, and he gave me permission to repost here.

It's quite technical and long, but very thorough.


Wow! I see you put a lot of work into this document.

Thanks
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Re: BB's Rybka/Ippolit comparison

Postby Chris Whittington » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:11 pm

zwegner wrote:OK, here's what you've all been waiting for: some actual evidence about Rybka and Ippolit. This comes from the man known as BB on the Rybka forum, and he gave me permission to repost here.

It's quite technical and long, but very thorough.


what an astonishing piece of hard and detailed work, congratulations to BB

ok, I read through fairly rapidly, I'm assuming the comparisons and detail are all accurate and honest btw, and the 'fast' conclusion is

1. there's no re-compilation of disassembled code here, too much stuff is different and it looks like the ideas in IPPOLIT are implemented such that the programmer absolutely has to fully understand what he is doing. the many listed differences require far too much skill to leave to a non-understanding re-compilation. there doesn't even seem to be evidence of fragments of re-compiled or stolen material, the closest I read was in piece tables but they're not that close, have substantial differences anyway, and the possible 'close' matches are explainable and probably repeatable in many programs piece tables.

2. there is the possibility that the Rybka code and the IPPOLIT code were written substantially by the same person/team, if I was investigating this, that's were I would put a strong line of questioning and research

3. There is the possibility that the Rybka code and the IPPOLIT code both owe quite a lot to ideas (not code, necessarily) from the same source (using source in its original meaning not source code)

Getting really sneaky and suspicious and off the wall, an explanation could be that Rybka's programmer departed the company and went away and wrote IPPOLIT. That could account for loss of source of R3, accusation of copying and creation of new stronger program. Then again such a scenario could be totally random.
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Re: BB's Rybka/Ippolit comparison

Postby Sentinel » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:24 pm

BB's report is a masterpiece. Astonishing amount of details. You have to know both codes really well (meaning either having source of R3 or to have it decompiled in detail), and to really be an expert.
Congratulations to BB on the great work.
Btw. anyone knows who is the guy?
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Re: BB's Rybka/Ippolit comparison

Postby kingliveson » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:32 pm

Sentinel wrote:BB's report is a masterpiece. Astonishing amount of details. You have to know both codes really well (meaning either having source of R3 or to have it decompiled in detail), and to really be an expert.
Congratulations to BB on the great work.
Btw. anyone knows who is the guy?



Am half way through it, and I can tell you that if I were an investigator, "BB" would be a suspect on my list. It is just too detailed. But seriously, quite some information here. Still reading...
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Re: BB's Rybka/Ippolit comparison

Postby John Blake » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:41 pm

I'm not a programmer, but theres a lot of info.

Thanks
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Re: BB's Rybka/Ippolit comparison

Postby zwegner » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:42 pm

Chris Whittington wrote:
zwegner wrote:OK, here's what you've all been waiting for: some actual evidence about Rybka and Ippolit. This comes from the man known as BB on the Rybka forum, and he gave me permission to repost here.

It's quite technical and long, but very thorough.


what an astonishing piece of hard and detailed work, congratulations to BB

ok, I read through fairly rapidly, I'm assuming the comparisons and detail are all accurate and honest btw, and the 'fast' conclusion is

1. there's no re-compilation of disassembled code here, too much stuff is different and it looks like the ideas in IPPOLIT are implemented such that the programmer absolutely has to fully understand what he is doing. the many listed differences require far too much skill to leave to a non-understanding re-compilation. there doesn't even seem to be evidence of fragments of re-compiled or stolen material, the closest I read was in piece tables but they're not that close, have substantial differences anyway, and the possible 'close' matches are explainable and probably repeatable in many programs piece tables.

2. there is the possibility that the Rybka code and the IPPOLIT code were written substantially by the same person/team, if I was investigating this, that's were I would put a strong line of questioning and research

3. There is the possibility that the Rybka code and the IPPOLIT code both owe quite a lot to ideas (not code, necessarily) from the same source (using source in its original meaning not source code)

Getting really sneaky and suspicious and off the wall, an explanation could be that Rybka's programmer departed the company and went away and wrote IPPOLIT. That could account for loss of source of R3, accusation of copying and creation of new stronger program. Then again such a scenario could be totally random.


100% agreed. The decompilation story leaves a lot to be desired IMO. I do hope the real story emerges some day, along with the identities of those involved.
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Re: BB's Rybka/Ippolit comparison

Postby Hood » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:42 pm

zwegner wrote:OK, here's what you've all been waiting for: some actual evidence about Rybka and Ippolit. This comes from the man known as BB on the Rybka forum, and he gave me permission to repost here.

It's quite technical and long, but very thorough.


Interesting would be to see BB correlation tables of top engines. :-) . An other masterpiece.
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Re: BB's Rybka/Ippolit comparison

Postby zwegner » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:44 pm

Sentinel wrote:BB's report is a masterpiece. Astonishing amount of details. You have to know both codes really well (meaning either having source of R3 or to have it decompiled in detail), and to really be an expert.
Congratulations to BB on the great work.
Btw. anyone knows who is the guy?


It is very impressive, but IMO the most impressive part about it is that BB says he did this without IDA or any other tool, but just by using the output of objdump. Pretty ridiculous.

And I do know who he is (I actually met him in person), but I imagine he wants to remain anonymous. I'll point him towards this forum though so he can maybe participate in this discussion.
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