Progess (often) is ugly, a summary try

General discussion about computer chess...
veritas
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Re: Progess (often) is ugly, a summary try

Post by veritas » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:25 pm

JcMaTe wrote:Rebeld do you remember Milli Vanilli? if yes can you tell me what do you think about it?


I am not programmer but i can say this VAS took advantage from crafty and fruit to make money and have a better life till today with out them( crafty and fruit )there would not rybka and the way you feel make me think for you its ok that somebody steal one million dollars then go and give them poor people to have a better life and everybody we have to cheer for that?

vas is a rose colored spectacles idea of a modern day robin hood to some ***holes :roll:



he robbed everyone , he gave one buggy update for free (4.1 ) hoping to appease and buy time , and that was 2 years late and still did not address the original faults , trading standards would have had him by the short and curlies had he lived somewhere else .he gave engines to his cronies and CERTAIN others to buy there cooperation and keep them quite he charged EVERYONE else , way over the odds , worse still he labeled all REAL competitors as clones and thieves ,and still hides behind his wife's skirt rather than come out and hold his hands up , as a ReaL man would , she must be sorely embarrassed , or should be

Mill Vanilli
yes a late 70s ? fake band who mimed to other singing and passed there records and miming s on stage as if they were singing and never credited the real singers , made a heap of cash ,, yes quite a good analogy that

oudheusa
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Re: Progess (often) is ugly, a summary try

Post by oudheusa » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:30 pm

hyatt wrote: Do you _really_ think that without Rybka, whatever it was that Vas discovered would have remained forever secret?
It would have for you Bob.
Nobody says you didn't try, but you are just not that talented.

veritas
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Re: Progess (often) is ugly, a summary try

Post by veritas » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:32 pm

oudheusa wrote:
hyatt wrote: Do you _really_ think that without Rybka, whatever it was that Vas discovered would have remained forever secret?
It would have for you Bob.
Nobody says you didn't try, but you are just not that talented.

and your an ex spurt i guess :roll:

hyatt
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Re: Progess (often) is ugly, a summary try

Post by hyatt » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:41 pm

I am sure he is.

ex as in "has-been"

Spurt as in "drip under pressure."

So "expert" fits him well...

oudheusa
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Re: Progess (often) is ugly, a summary try

Post by oudheusa » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:59 pm

Rebel wrote:
hyatt wrote:There is no "legacy" when you steal something, use the money for good, then get caught.
So now you are going to remove all the stolen Rybka idea's in Crafty ?
Ouch!

kranium
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Re: Progess (often) is ugly, a summary try

Post by kranium » Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:36 pm

Rebel wrote: There is no mentioning that without Rybka, because its ideas were hacked in return, nowadays modern engines play 300-400 elo stronger. This is Vas's legacy. Without a hacked Rybka no Houdini. Without a hacked Rybka the old boys, the Fritzes, the Shredders etc. probably would still rule perhaps having some (fierce) competition of Stockfish. All playing hundreds of elo points less. It should be mentioned and it isn't.
1.) There is only circumstantial hearsay that Ippoit was 'hacked' from Rybka.
no direct 'proof' has been offered in any way shape or form, many are 'assuming', and you know what that does

i.e.
-Vas said it was...
-Larry K. said the PST values looked familiar
-Bob H. says it appears to have been reverse engineered
and not much more...

but the engine started stronger than Rybka with no features, not even pondering!?
in the meantime, the engine has gone through substantial and thorough development for 2 years
adding much elo,
numerous innovative features,
a full-fledged an unique endgame tablebase solution,
and more...
clearly the work of skilled programmers who understand chess engine development (as well or better tha Vas IMO)

let's give them:
-oodles of cash for development costs
-dedicated support of a large international corporation
-top notch opening book writers
-Larry Kaufman
-a bevy of dedicated beta testers
etc.

and I believe the scenario might very well repeat itself!

Vas took the initiative, cheated, didn't get caught (until now), obtained generous financial support and help, and evaded detection for years...long enough to make great progress.
that's his legacy Ed...(exceptional cunning and skill when stealing the opportunity)

i.e. I believe many programmers could have had similar success give the same set of circumstances...

Jeremy Bernstein
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Re: Progess (often) is ugly, a summary try

Post by Jeremy Bernstein » Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:28 am

veritas wrote:he robbed everyone , he gave one buggy update for free (4.1 ) hoping to appease and buy time , and that was 2 years late and still did not address the original faults , trading standards would have had him by the short and curlies had he lived somewhere else .
Despite its bugs and flaws, Rybka was the strongest engine available for a very long time, with a fairly reliable evaluation under most circumstances (with the same weaknesses that most engines have [bad eval of closed positions, limited endgame knowledge, etc.]). Since most engine users are ELO queens, this was certainly enough to keep sales up, even with the understanding that the goods weren't perfect. I've never heard of a trade commission going after a software manufacturer for bugs or difficult-to-use/half-implemented features.
he gave engines to his cronies and CERTAIN others to buy there cooperation and keep them quite he charged EVERYONE else , way over the odds ,
I don't think there's any evidence for any of that, nor a reason to believe that this was the case. Freebies are part of software development, and are generally not given out with strings attached. Whether the recipients considered themselves beholden to Vasik, who can say (CCRL testing policies would give one the impression that there was some interest in not rocking the boat, but I doubt that the impetus came from Vasik, more from "true hobbyists" like Graham Banks who were (in my personal opinion) afraid of losing "privileges"). Peter Skinner, who was apparently quite critical of Rybka, at least at the outset, received free copies, as well, so this just doesn't really hold water.
worse still he labeled all REAL competitors as clones and thieves
This is ironic, of course. Time will tell if Ippolit and friends are, in fact, "clones" -- the jury is still out on that. I tend to think that they aren't, at least not in the sense of "stolen code", but probably in the sense of "functionally equivalent on the basis of reverse engineering". Which is probably reason enough to keep them out of ICGA tournaments.
,and still hides behind his wife's skirt rather than come out and hold his hands up , as a ReaL man would , she must be sorely embarrassed , or should be
It furthers no one's arguments to drag Iweta Rajlich into this (I guess you're just making a snipe at Vas' manhood here, which is also pretty beside the point, but as long as you bring her up...). She's neither a programmer nor responsible for the deception at hand. I think it's unfortunate that Metro took the opportunity to publish that silly photo of the two of them and call her "the computer chess world equivalent of Posh". But that's the yellow press for you. Anyhow, leave her out of it -- this is his mess.

I guess my point is, Vas is just a programmer who made about the worst mistake you can make in the programming world, and compounded it with his (initial) denials and subsequent silence. He doesn't get any pity from me: as a programmer, I consider his actions professionally heinous; and as a Rybka licensee, I have a ton of issues with the way he conducts his business and serves his customers, but that's another matter which is better solved by no longer feeding the meter.

Nevertheless, I assume that he's a reasonably smart, averagely nice guy and doesn't deserve to be personally demonized on top of the disgrace he's been served this week.

So let's try to keep it civil -- a lot of ugly words are flying around CC fora this week, and a bit of perspective and restraint would go a long way.

Jeremy

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Re: Progess (often) is ugly, a summary try

Post by kingliveson » Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:52 am

I am usually of the opinion for keeping spouses and children out of politics -- It serves no purpose. And also, that "Pawn Stars" article by Metro is just unfortunate. Furthermore, how in the world did Hitler who oversaw the murder of ~6M, and Mussolini become part of the discussion?! Let's try to keep things in perspective; he violated the rules of a governing body and at worst, software licensing.
PAWN : Knight >> Bishop >> Rook >>Queen

veritas
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Re: Progess (often) is ugly, a summary try

Post by veritas » Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:25 am

Jeremy Bernstein wrote:
veritas wrote:he robbed everyone , he gave one buggy update for free (4.1 ) hoping to appease and buy time , and that was 2 years late and still did not address the original faults , trading standards would have had him by the short and curlies had he lived somewhere else .
Despite its bugs and flaws, Rybka was the strongest engine available for a very long time, with a fairly reliable evaluation under most circumstances (with the same weaknesses that most engines have [bad eval of closed positions, limited endgame knowledge, etc.]). Since most engine users are ELO queens, this was certainly enough to keep sales up, even with the understanding that the goods weren't perfect. I've never heard of a trade commission going after a software manufacturer for bugs or difficult-to-use/half-implemented features.
he gave engines to his cronies and CERTAIN others to buy there cooperation and keep them quite he charged EVERYONE else , way over the odds ,
I don't think there's any evidence for any of that, nor a reason to believe that this was the case. Freebies are part of software development, and are generally not given out with strings attached. Whether the recipients considered themselves beholden to Vasik, who can say (CCRL testing policies would give one the impression that there was some interest in not rocking the boat, but I doubt that the impetus came from Vasik, more from "true hobbyists" like Graham Banks who were (in my personal opinion) afraid of losing "privileges"). Peter Skinner, who was apparently quite critical of Rybka, at least at the outset, received free copies, as well, so this just doesn't really hold water.
worse still he labeled all REAL competitors as clones and thieves
This is ironic, of course. Time will tell if Ippolit and friends are, in fact, "clones" -- the jury is still out on that. I tend to think that they aren't, at least not in the sense of "stolen code", but probably in the sense of "functionally equivalent on the basis of reverse engineering". Which is probably reason enough to keep them out of ICGA tournaments.
,and still hides behind his wife's skirt rather than come out and hold his hands up , as a ReaL man would , she must be sorely embarrassed , or should be
It furthers no one's arguments to drag Iweta Rajlich into this (I guess you're just making a snipe at Vas' manhood here, which is also pretty beside the point, but as long as you bring her up...). She's neither a programmer nor responsible for the deception at hand. I think it's unfortunate that Metro took the opportunity to publish that silly photo of the two of them and call her "the computer chess world equivalent of Posh". But that's the yellow press for you. Anyhow, leave her out of it -- this is his mess.

I guess my point is, Vas is just a programmer who made about the worst mistake you can make in the programming world, and compounded it with his (initial) denials and subsequent silence. He doesn't get any pity from me: as a programmer, I consider his actions professionally heinous; and as a Rybka licensee, I have a ton of issues with the way he conducts his business and serves his customers, but that's another matter which is better solved by no longer feeding the meter.

Nevertheless, I assume that he's a reasonably smart, averagely nice guy and doesn't deserve to be personally demonized on top of the disgrace he's been served this week.

So let's try to keep it civil -- a lot of ugly words are flying around CC fora this week, and a bit of perspective and restraint would go a long way.

Jeremy
not despite its flaws at all m the engine may have been strongest but it was not fit for purpose , rybka refused to refund monies to several i know personally and blatantly ignored others , and what could have been resolved EASILY (as Ippolit demonstrated ) the dumb bishop bug was never EVER bothered to be fixed by vas , it confounded many a beginner and despite your not being one 10.s of 1000s of youngsters were bought these engines and were relative if not complete beginners
a monk coat with bad seams may look great but isnt wholly fit for purpose ( draw your own and better anolagys by all means )is it ?

relatively nice ? Hitler loved dogs , Stalin probably was "relatively " nice to some , serial killers are RELATIVELY nice to some , con men that rob old age pensioners are very nice to some

Facts are Vas stole , lied , cheated and tried to get innocent blamed for his own guilt and aided in the RIPPING OFF of many account holders of playchess , who were indiscriminately banned by his 2 faced Hiracs cronie and others desperate to protect the rybka monopoly there

peter skinner has publicly apologized for taking freebee bribes to allow the engines to be seen by the world as legitimate winners , you can couch his words any way you like but that's what it boils down to , bribery and corruption , you began this forum because of you sickness of it om CCC so please lets not hypocritical or overly generous about theft lies and corruption , even if there's a touch pf compassion hes not deserving of it , i don't care of jack the ripper had a sex change and became Florence nightingale , it doesn't make him innocent and Vas is shamefully guilty and a coward

As for his wife,, shes internationally known figure in chess and has enjoyed living off monies that were in effect , rightfully in part belonging to Fabien etc , the fact of her being DIRECTLY involved in the working of making rybka 4 , Vas's own words in chessbase or Felixs article makes her complicit albeit after the fact , an advocate may beg to differ but that's how the majority will feel , its nothing personal...its hard business , that's what she and Vas understand , its my opinion . which i am entitled to express in as polite a manner as i have

what good really came of his thefts , the lies and corruptions are that Ippolit was born and many here and across the world have benefited FAR MORE from Ippolit than they have from Vas

hats off to Vas for that if you like :idea:

hyatt
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Re: Progess (often) is ugly, a summary try

Post by hyatt » Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:45 am

Rebel wrote:
hyatt wrote:There is no "legacy" when you steal something, use the money for good, then get caught.
So now you are going to remove all the stolen Rybka idea's in Crafty ?

Please feel free to point out _one_ block of stolen code from Rybka that is in Crafty. Then we will talk...

I'll bet that I can back-trace the big majority of the code in Crafty to _well_ before rybka hit the scene, using a public archive of old source versions so that anyone can verify. But first, let me know what you think is in Crafty that came from Rybka? No ideas from ippolit/robo* are in Crafty. The only idea I even played with was the tt-singular idea, because I noticed it in robo* and in stockfish, and the idea did not seem reasonable to me. I tried a dozen variations and threw it away. Any others you want to mention???

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