Anyway, on what may very well be last response to you, in this thread or otherwise...
As should have been clear from the context, I was not interesting in going further [at that time] because what I had found by the first cursory inspection already made it clear that there was a lot of Fruit/LOOP overlap, and this sufficed for the time being. Later in that thread (which I will take the time to cite), I gave a (lightly) annotated disassembly of the relevant LOOP eval function.BB+ wrote: I made a cursory glance at Loop 2007 (the 64-bit version). It uses exactly the same PST as Fruit 2.1. The pawn eval uses the same scores. It shifts the mobility count as with Fruit (by 4,6,7,13) before multiplying, and then the arithmetic is the same (4 for N, 5 for B). I'm not that interested in going further.
As you know, the Panel discussions are private. In any case, "More" does not mean "an undoubtedly 100% clone" to quote your words to Jaap. I am in full agreement (with myself) that the LOOP/Fruit overlap is more than the Rybka/Fruit overlap (which is the context of the above quotation). But I am also in sharp disagreement with your phrasing of LOOP being "an undoubtedly 100% clone", that for some reason you have attributed to me.Rebel wrote:2. From the Panel discussion - though with now Loop 2007 looming (which seems even more obviously a Fruit/Toga clone),
Yes, Jaap was truthful -- it is not my point of view that the Fruit/LOOP situation is "as clear as you stated", meaning "an undoubtedly 100% clone". Furthermore, I am telling the truth and there is no "obvious conflict", as I explain above. I think the only one who is not truthful is you, when you introduced this "an undoubtedly 100% clone" phrasing, and somehow then tried to palm it off as being from my mouth or writings.Rebel wrote:So which one of you is telling the truth?
Was Jaap truthful when he stated, "from his [Mark Watkins] point of view it was not as clear as you stated but there were pointers." obviously conflicts your earlier statements about LOOP, calling it a clone.
To conclude:
- MarkW implied/said (in 2011 forum posts and private Panel discussions) that LOOP is more obviously a Fruit "clone" than Rybka,
though made little if any quantification of this. - Mr. Schröder wrote to Jaap and indicated that (contrary to Rybka) LOOP was "an undoubtedly 100% clone".
- Jaap correctly replied that MarkW (in his 2013 impromptu Yokohama presentation) did not think it was "as clear as you stated [ie 100% clone]".
- Jaap indicated that in my talk "there were pointers" [to LOOP sharing Fruit origins], namely that I sketched the evidence that was in the 2011 Forum post cited above.
- Jaap further (correctly) noted "moreover there was a discussion [with Amir Ban in particular] to what extent" LOOP was a clone, and any conclusion herein was not determined on-the-spot by the "audience judges" (after a 15-minute briefing), but would rather await a fuller analysis.
- Mr. Schröder, as Rajlich's representative, somehow confused all this, and asserted that MarkW had "changed his mind" regarding LOOP, writing to Levy: Mark Watkins remarks during the programmer meeting in Japan (2013) when he said, "The LOOP case is not so clear", he considered his previous statements as wrong and changed his mind.
- Mr. Schröder moreover (in this thread) erroneously proposes that Jaap's comments were in response to previous statements [MarkW] made here (on this forum) Loop undoubtly being a Fruit clone -- whereas the only use of this "undoubtedly" terminology was from Schröder himself.
I think the misunderstanding is at least 90% that of Mr. Schröder.Harvey Williamson wrote:Perhaps Jaap misunderstood part of the discussion but my recollection of it is as Mark has posted.