How about we have a little laugh ?

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Sedat Canbaz
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Re: How about we have a little laugh ?

Post by Sedat Canbaz » Sun Mar 30, 2025 5:42 pm

@To All People

Image

SOURCE (STATS / GAMES):
https://sites.google.com/site/computers ... t-nn-cs-56

And based on many other tests, again based on weak openings,
Where all the statitsics are similar..almost all wins by Whites!!

Note also that,
We should not mix apples with oranges! because I refer
In case of testing with close in strength TOP engines!
Otherwise, if playing Strong vs Weak engines, the stats
May be different..but if close strength Top NNUE 3700+
Engines..Blacks suffer a lot..at least under SCCT cond!

And just a few notes more,
Chess is a strategic, ancient game, which is playing via
2 (two) sides and for more than 1500 years! Exc. since
NNUE 2020, we see by some testers, engines are often
Forced to be as 'dominant' mainly via White colors! sad..

If still not so clear, what about Blacks? it seems the
Authors of these weak openings are far away from
Real, classic games! And once more, the quality is
Too bad..with these played handicapped openings !!

And is this all ? not of course )
Just in case of test via weak lines..many thousands
Of games (per player) are required..if not, I'm afraid
To say, the ERROR margin is expecting be too high !!

Where with strong opening suites,
Minus plus 1000 games (per player) is enough!

Hope helps )

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deeds
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Re: How about we have a little laugh ?

Post by deeds » Sun Mar 30, 2025 7:23 pm

Thank you Sedat, you just confirmed that the white's advantage depends on the opening list :

The UHO opening list
Image
White advantage = +85%

:difus_rofl :difus_rofl :difus_rofl

But we already knew this for a long time :
deeds wrote: The "20 first legal moves" opening list
White advantage = -24%

The "silver gambit suite" opening list
White advantage = 3.5%

From the start position (= no opening list)
White advantage = 1.2%
source

Sedat Canbaz
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Re: How about we have a little laugh ?

Post by Sedat Canbaz » Sun Mar 30, 2025 8:33 pm

@To Deeds

You are welcome, I miss ? sorry.. I disagree here..

On other hand,
I am poor man ?) Are you sure ? ;)

Anyhow, as far as I remember,
Silver Suite is based on small number of openings,
So it's pretty pointless to talk over stats, where
UHO suite is much better for general statistics!

But however, I say again:
In overall, mostly weak suites favor for White side!
Proved, guaranteed..not via papers but via facts !!

Btw, as other alternative tests..you can check, learn:

SCCT - Opening Suite Testings II:
https://sites.google.com/site/computers ... testings-2

SCCT - Opening Suite Testings I:
https://sites.google.com/site/computers ... testings-1

If you need more tests (as references via weak lines) just let Me know..
But note that they participated in many SCCT book tours. and as usual,
Their ranks were in one of last ranks...reason? I assume you know ?!

And once more (for anyone missed): let's hope that UNBALANCED users
Will not start to say for Champion books that they are Balanced books!
Due no such thing, if your target is to be 'dominant' in game-play mode!

Greetings

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deeds
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Re: How about we have a little laugh ?

Post by deeds » Sun Mar 30, 2025 9:09 pm

All UHO lists are already ranked by their score range. The more positive is their score range, the greater is their advantage for white. Nothing new.

I always use at least 3 different opening lists from 3 different sources so there is no point in a single list from a single source offering a too great adantage for white.

Engine training results are not engine ranking tournaments. Engine trainers run thousands games by opening. TDs run a few games by opening. Nothing to see.

Sedat Canbaz
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Re: How about we have a little laugh ?

Post by Sedat Canbaz » Sun Mar 30, 2025 9:31 pm

@To Deeds

Nothing to see ? maybe for your side..since you are EXP trainer
But I am pretty sure, there are many who are interested in my
Chess activities...

Moreover, I assume mostly of us (in our Computer Chess)
We're not much interested such as 500 tests per opening!
At least for my side..it is a madness, just waste of time..
Because eng /opening theory is changing dramatically fast !!
E.g your today's learned opening positions can be outperformed
Tomorrow... and hope helps!

And here is another Golden Key, Besides I suppose also,
Many many people find as TOO BORING if testing same lines
Over and over...but anyhow we do not worry too much, since
EXP trainers (as Deeds) will do this job... instead of us... ;)

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deeds
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Re: How about we have a little laugh ?

Post by deeds » Mon Mar 31, 2025 2:08 pm

Sedat wrote: Silver Suite is based on small number of openings, So it's pretty pointless to talk over stats, where UHO suite is much better for general statistics!
Again, you missed the point :!:

You told "in case of unbalanced openings, Almost all wins when via Whites" but the UHO opening lists are designed to reduce the number of draws so it has nothing to do with "avoiding a white advantage with unbalanced openings"
:difus_rofl :difus_rofl :difus_rofl

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deeds
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Re: How about we have a little laugh ?

Post by deeds » Mon Mar 31, 2025 3:52 pm

Sedat wrote: ...I assume mostly of us (in our Computer Chess) We're not much interested such as 500 tests per opening...
I confirm : 500 games/opening is often not enough for a learning engine to test each move on each key position of an opening.
:lol:

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deeds
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Re: How about we have a little laugh ?

Post by deeds » Mon Mar 31, 2025 4:07 pm

Sedat wrote: ...just waste of time.. Because eng /opening theory is changing dramatically fast...
...your today's learned opening positions can be outperformed Tomorrow...
For engine trainers it's the opposite. :lol:

An EXP file, which was trained on openings months/years ago, always maintains excellent accuracy :

Eman 7.80 (Dec, 2021) nn-ac07bd334b62 (=older net) vs StockFish 14.1 nn-13406b1dcbe0 (=newer net)

Eman 8.00 (April, 2022) nn-e1fb1ade4432 (newer net) vs StockFish 15.0 nn-6877cd24400e (older net)

Eman 8.40 (Oct, 2022) nn-e1fb1ade4432 (newer net) vs StockFish 15.1 nn-ad9b42354671 (older net)

etc.

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deeds
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Re: How about we have a little laugh ?

Post by deeds » Mon Mar 31, 2025 4:07 pm

And when engine trainers reinforce their experience data, their accuracy can do fun things like :

solving 1.g4 as black

Eman 8.40 @ TC 1m+1s vs Stockfish 15.1 @ TC 6m+6s

D.C.S. (Eman 8.40, Depth4 EXP) vs Stockfish 16.1

etc.

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deeds
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Re: How about we have a little laugh ?

Post by deeds » Mon Mar 31, 2025 5:17 pm

Previosuly :
deeds wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2024 8:54 am
When Sedat pretends to confuse us :
Sedat Canbaz wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2023 10:38 am
...
@ to IbaiBuR member

Are you sarona again FAKE accounts ?
...
Sedat Canbaz wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2023 4:43 pm
...
Deeds = IbaiBuR ?
...
Sedat Canbaz wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2024 11:42 pm
...
Deeds = Rulleeeee ??
...
Sedat Canbaz wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2024 9:24 am
...
Ding-Bat = Hurnavich
...
Psychologically for him, there are fewer of us, so if we make the same criticisms, Sedat believes that in fact there is only one person who has realized the unfair conditions of his meaningless tournaments. And Sedat hopes that people will believe that there is only one person criticizing him. Sedat understood the danger of engine trainers for authors of opening books.
Nowadays :
Sedat Canbaz wrote:
Wed Mar 26, 2025 10:35 pm
only by deeds and why ?
Btw, just don't say sarona..he uses another Fake account..very likely belonging to deeds!
Actually there is one programmer..and all those Fake accounts are belonging to same programmer!
:difus_rofl :difus_rofl :difus_rofl

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